Hello all,
Let me introduce myself first, My name is Philip Simon and have been
supervisor of the Liquid Air Plant at UC Berkeley/Chemistry for 17 years
and have worked the plant for 27 years. Liquid Air Plant is a misnomer,
there was for many years here, a full air separation plant built from
scratch back in the 60's. As you might well expect it became much more
economical to buy cryogens commercially than running 3 shifts on equipment
that old and was shut down some time in the 70's. The helium recovery and
re liquefaction side remained because of the unreliable delivery of liquid
helium in those days.
I currently can store 56000 cf of high pressure gas (2200psi) and can
liquefy 45L/hour. We recover gas from 40 different users from 5 buildings,
2 more coming on line next year. This single operation softens the helium
market impact on UC Berkeley, gives me the ability to keep going when our
supplier has delivery or supply issues and lets the students blow off
thinking about it untill the last minute( I do try to discourage this
behavior)
In the past few years I have been involved in many discussions about the
very issue at hand and was actively involved with Caltech when they built
their plant last year.
I know I am preaching to the choir here so I will try to stay off slamming
the admin.for spending fabulous amounts of money on "pretty" and not
infrastructure, after all we want you to do science so we can brag and take
credit for it but we don't want to see it............ok I'l stop.
Walt in particular, man you walk on the razors edge, 5 days on the water
plus admin time plus you hope the ship doesn't sink and you start over. As
you mentioned talking to the right people will help and if you make enough
noise about what it will cost to burn down one of those magnets or even be
forced into De-energizing it and restarting because there was no helium
available I think the cost VS reliability issue would hold water.
I believe our approach from here on needs to be from a position of not
what this will cost or how long it takes to pay but, back but having it at
all.Congress's mess with the BLM was just a warning shot for us about the
coming cost of privatizing those wells.
The Caltech plant was near 2 million dollars when it was making liquid but
it is a private institution and they have plenty of money but, had the
foresight to understand the benefits.
We charge what we pay for LHe + about a dollar for operational costs but we
meter each point of return, read these meters every month and pay the
research group back for the helium they return. This encourages them to do
so as well as saving them thousands of $ annually.Once you get the campus
into a "closed system" as it were, you only need to buy helium occasionally
to replenish losses and if it is 2 weeks late arriving, your operation
isn't adversely affected.
I have gone on at length here so I'l stop
Phil
Philip Simon
Supervisor, Liquid Air Plant
UC Berkeley Chemistry
pfsimon_at_berkeley.edu
W 510 642 4165
C 925 497 6648
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Chris Canlas <cgcanlas_at_berkeley.edu>wrote:
> Some interesting reading..
> Chris
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Walt Niemczura <walt_at_hawaii.edu>
> Date: Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: AMMRL: Helium Recovery - When does it become cost effective?
> To: Kenneth Knott <kknott_at_vt.edu>
> Cc: ammrl_at_ammrl.org
>
>
> Hi Ken and All,
>
> We are currently researching this question.
>
> Let me give you a little background about running an NMR facility in the
> middle of the Pacific Ocean.
>
> We are at the mercy of the local industrial gas vendors. Back in the late
> 1980 we were being gouged to the tune of $2.10/L for liquid nitrogen. We
> petitioned the VP for Research and purchased a small LN plant that produces
> 10L/hr. The VP paid for half ($75K at the time) and we charged to pay back
> the debt on the rest of the purchase price and for maintenance. We sold LN
> for $1.00/L for three years and then dropped the price to $0.50/L and have
> been charging that since 1994. We supply the entire campus on the output
> from our little plant. Granted the maintenance on this system is not all
> that much. We renew some O-rings and clean some parts ourselves and have a
> local compressor maintenance company do the heavy repairs. In a good year
> we spend around $4.8K in service and another $5K in parts. Twice we've had
> a major overhaul that cost $21K, mostly due to travel from Europe for the
> service engineer.
>
> Around this time I was in the throws of ordering liquid He from the
> mainland. A 100 L order, at $4.25/L, came from Oakland, arrived with, at
> best 80L and usually 65 to 70L, cost $370.00 in round trip shipping and
> close to $600 in rental charges on the dewar during transit (it's a five
> day boat ride). Bottom line was I paid about $12.00/L. After a lot of
> negotiating I managed to get the local company to give us the dregs of the
> LHe they were bringing in for the hospitals for $11.89/L. This price lasted
> until the sales representative retired in 2008. Since then our LHe costs
> have increased to today's price of a mere $32.95/L. Yep, that's right. We
> pay about $3500.00 per 100L dewar.
>
> We currently have three high resolution systems with older Oxford magnets
> and the college has ordered a 16cm 9.4T research MRI system. I'm now
> looking at the cost of a recovery system.
>
> The three high res. magnets boil off a total of about 53 cc/hr. The new
> 9.4T system is speced at 83 cc/hr. The back of the envelope calculation is
> we will need approximately 100L of LHe every month. Total cost for a year
> will top $42,000.00 just for LHe.
>
> Right now I am aware of one small system package that can be used to
> recover Helium gas, store, purify and reliquify it. Quantum Design in San
> Diego (http://qdusa.com) had a booth at this past ENC where they showed
> two systems. One could produce 12L of liquid a day, the other 22L/day. I
> have a preliminary quote for their High Pressure Recovery System producing
> 22L/day that is in the neighborhood of $250K. Assuming we can get internal
> funding for half this from the institution I guesstamate I can pay off the
> loan on the other half in five years if I charge the users around $20/L. A
> big savings to us. Once the loan is paid off the cost comes down to the
> maintenance.
>
> Currently there are many unknowns.
>
> I do not know what the ongoing maintenance costs are for this system. If
> you look at the QD Web site this is quite a bit of hardware to keep
> running. I'm waiting on an answer to that.
>
> Internal funding is also a big question mark. We're throwing money around
> like crazy here but not much goes to research infrastructure. However, I am
> optimistic I can get some interest if I talk to the right people.
>
> If we did go with the high pressure, higher capacity system we would have
> excess capacity. It would be possible for other labs on campus (Institute
> for Astronomy, Oceanography, Engineering, Geophysics and Physics) to
> purchase gas and have it liquified at this price thus increasing our user
> base and bring the price down.
>
> Right now with the current state of the Helium supply it is looking more
> and more like we need to bite the bullet and go this route.
>
> Sorry for the long answer. I'm afraid my situation is somewhat unique in
> the US. However, this is how it looks to me way out here. It's known as the
> cost of doing research in paradise.
>
> Walt
>
> On 9/25/13 8:19 AM, Kenneth Knott wrote:
>
>> Our department is beginning a 'sustainability of resources' initiative
>> and has asked me to inquire about the feasibility of a helium recovery
>> system. As of now we have 7 magnets, (3 older Oxford vintage and 4 newer
>> longer hold vintage) of 300, 4x400, 500 and a 600Mhz.
>>
>> At what point does it become cost effective to purchase and maintain a
>> helium recovery system?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --
>> Ken Knott
>> Department of Chemistry
>> Analytical Services
>> Virginia Tech
>>
>> (540)267-6502 (Cell)
>> (540)231-0885 (Office)
>>
>
> --
> Walter P. Niemczura, Ph. D.
> NMR/Mass Spec. Facility Director
> Department of Chemistry
> 2545 McCarthy Mall
> University of Hawaii
> Honolulu, HI 96822
> Ph: 808-956-3113
> FAX: 808-956-5908
> Email: walt_at_hawaii.edu
>
>
>
Received on Thu Sep 26 2013 - 10:07:02 MST