AMMRL: Estimation of experimental time

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Good morning Dale (and all others)!

 

First of all, thanks for this informative e-mail.

 

I agree that operator efficiency has to be taken into account for
routine/walk-up use, which we will certainly do.  However, I was
referring to cases where customers just drop their samples off and I run
the experiments, in which case efficient spectrometer operation will be
a given (hopefully, at least! J ).  I guess I was looking for a
guesstimation or guideline for experimental times given a certain type
of molecule, concentration etc., so along the lines of what Svetlana
provided (thanks for that!) ...

 

Cheers

Markus

 

From: Dale Treleaven [mailto:wtrelea@lsu.edu] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:58 AM
To: Markus Heller
Subject: RE: AMMRL: Estimation of experimental time

 

Good morning, Markus:

At Louisiana State University we realized that the important factor was
not how long a particular experiment
would take but how efficient the operator was when the set up and ran
the experiment.  Yes, if one is collecting
a simple 1-D 13C spectrum and they have a concentration of about 100 mM
then they can see a reasonable
spectrum in about 128 scans and one can easily calculate how long that
experiment will take given the
appropriate relaxation delays etc.  However, what this calculation does
not consider is the fact that the operator
may not be able to operate the spectrometer efficiently and thus may
spend 15 or 20 minutes trying to shim
the magnet or they failed to measure their pulse lengths appropriately.
All of these matters are important and
the all take time -- time during which other experimenters do not have
access to the instrument and hence the
user should be charged.  We use the FACES system at the university of
Georgia and users simply reserve a block
of time and are charged at an hourly rate.  Our rates are extremely low
($3.50 per prime time hour for a 700
with a cold probe!!) which is as low as we can make them but the system
works.  This system has some additional
advantages, depending how you decide to set it up.  In our case I create
an login ID for each user and I create a
GROUP for each faculty member.  When I create a login ID I then make
certain that each student is placed in the
group representing their research advisor.  Then, when it is time to
bill researchers I can print out a report
giving me the details of each user in each group, on any or all of the
instruments.  Moreover, if a student takes
3 hours to collect 8 scans on a 1-D proton spectrum, and there is
nothing unusual about the sample and the
instrumentation is working well, that student's supervisor will sort out
the problem soon enough.

I hope this helps more than it confuses you.

Cheers.


W. Dale Treleaven, Ph.D.
Manager, NMR Facility
Louisiana State University
Baton Rouge, LA
70803

Tel: (225) 578-2667

P.S.  Is Meyer Blum still in Physics at UBC?  If so, please say hello to
him from me.





-----Original Message-----
From: Markus Heller [mailto:mheller@cdrd.ca]
Sent: Wed 3/5/2008 6:35 PM
To: ammrl@chemnmr.colorado.edu
Subject: AMMRL: Estimation of experimental time

Dear List,



I am in the process of setting up a cost recovery system.  I would like
to be able to guesstimate the experimental time for, say a 13C 1D or a
H,C-HMBC, without knowing the sample concentration, kinda like ``30 mins
for a 50 mM sample, 4h for a 20 mM sample''.  Reason is, I'd like to be
able to give clients an estimation of costs on our web page.  Do you
have any recommendations for that?



Thanks a lot!



Markus



--

Markus Heller, PhD

NMR Scientist

Centre for Drug Research and Development (CDRD)

364--2259 Lower Mall

University of British Columbia

Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z4

T: 604 221 7750 ext 122

F: 604 221 7753



http://www.cdrd.ca






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may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not
the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and
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Good morning Dale (and all others)!

 

First of all, thanks for this informative =
e-mail.

 

I agree that operator efficiency has to be taken into =
account
for routine/walk-up use, which we will certainly do.  However, I =
was
referring to cases where customers just drop their samples off and I run =
the experiments,
in which case efficient spectrometer operation will be a given =
(hopefully, at
least! J
).  I guess I was looking for a guesstimation or guideline for
experimental times given a certain type of molecule, concentration etc., =
so
along the lines of what Svetlana provided (thanks for that!) =
…

 

Cheers

Markus

 





From:=
 =
Dale Treleaven
[mailto:wtrelea@lsu.edu] 

Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:58 AM

To: Markus Heller

Subject: RE: AMMRL: Estimation of experimental time





 

Good =
morning,
Markus:



At Louisiana State University we realized that the important factor was =
not how
long a particular experiment

would take but how efficient the operator was when the set up and ran =
the
experiment.  Yes, if one is collecting

a simple 1-D 13C spectrum and they have a concentration of about 100 mM =
then
they can see a reasonable

spectrum in about 128 scans and one can easily calculate how long that
experiment will take given the

appropriate relaxation delays etc.  However, what this calculation =
does
not consider is the fact that the operator

may not be able to operate the spectrometer efficiently and thus may =
spend 15
or 20 minutes trying to shim

the magnet or they failed to measure their pulse lengths =
appropriately. 
All of these matters are important and

the all take time -- time during which other experimenters do not have =
access
to the instrument and hence the

user should be charged.  We use the FACES system at the university =
of
Georgia and users simply reserve a block

of time and are charged at an hourly rate.  Our rates are extremely =
low
($3.50 per prime time hour for a 700

with a cold probe!!) which is as low as we can make them but the system
works.  This system has some additional

advantages, depending how you decide to set it up.  In our case I =
create
an login ID for each user and I create a

GROUP for each faculty member.  When I create a login ID I then =
make
certain that each student is placed in the

group representing their research advisor.  Then, when it is time =
to bill
researchers I can print out a report

giving me the details of each user in each group, on any or all of the
instruments.  Moreover, if a student takes

3 hours to collect 8 scans on a 1-D proton spectrum, and there is =
nothing
unusual about the sample and the

instrumentation is working well, that student's supervisor will sort out =
the
problem soon enough.



I hope this helps more than it confuses you.



Cheers.





W. Dale Treleaven, Ph.D.

Manager, NMR Facility

Louisiana State University

Baton Rouge, LA

70803



Tel: (225) 578-2667



P.S.  Is Meyer Blum still in Physics at UBC?  If so, please =
say hello
to him from me.











-----Original Message-----

From: Markus Heller [mailto:mheller@cdrd.ca]

Sent: Wed 3/5/2008 6:35 PM

To: ammrl@chemnmr.colorado.edu

Subject: AMMRL: Estimation of experimental time



Dear List,







I am in the process of setting up a cost recovery system.  I would =
like

to be able to guesstimate the experimental time for, say a 13C 1D or =
a

H,C-HMBC, without knowing the sample concentration, kinda like ``30 =
mins

for a 50 mM sample, 4h for a 20 mM sample''.  Reason is, I'd like =
to be

able to give clients an estimation of costs on our web page.  Do =
you

have any recommendations for that?







Thanks a lot!







Markus







--



Markus Heller, PhD



NMR Scientist



Centre for Drug Research and Development (CDRD)



364--2259 Lower Mall



University of British Columbia



Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z4



T: 604 221 7750 ext 122



F: 604 221 7753







http://www.cdrd.ca













This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and =
may
contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized =
review, use,
disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all =
copies of
the original message. If you are the intended recipient, please be =
advised that
the content of this message is subject to access, review and disclosure =
by the
sender's Email System Administrator.






 
 
This email message is for =
the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential =
and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or =
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, =
please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the =
original message. If you are the intended recipient, please be advised =
that the content of this message is subject to access, review and =
disclosure by the sender's Email System Administrator.

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